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In the interest of balance, some good guys.

December 4, 2012

I’m often banging on that the philosophy of Islam is dangerous, damaging and an opponent of all the freedoms that have been bought for us in the West at very high cost by many generations. 

However, although much of the Islamic world and wider Islamic culture is quite often a ‘civilisation fail’ I recognise, as should any reasonable person, that there are those in the Islamic community who have the potential to be the equivalent of a Spinoza or a Luther for their community.

There are two examples of this possible Islamic Enlightenment thinking that I’ll bring to you today.

The first is a group called British Muslims for a Secular Democracy. This group says it opposes radicalism and works towards reducing the disconnect between Muslim Britons and the culture of secularism and secular democracy. They also do seem to be at least trying to see those of other religions as equal of respect, something which has been missing from much of Islamic history. Yes, they have a naïve element of ‘if only we explain ourselves then people won’t hate us’ about them but at least they are trying. I’m not sure that I agree with their idea that the state should be totally secular (I’m a bit of an antidisestablishmentarianist and feel that the presence of the established Church acts as a channel between the secular and religious parts of society) but their view is one that is probably shared by groups such as the National Secular Society or other groups seeking disestablishment.

The second is a man who I hope has some beefy security surrounding him despite his touching trust in the British Police. In a world where Islamic discourse about the State of Israel mostly consists of mobs of bearded head-cases shouting ‘kill the Jews’, it is more than refreshing to hear of a Muslim speaking up FOR Israel. Hasan Afzal, of the group British Muslims for Israel, has observed the success of democratic open societies like Israel and has told Muslims to ask the question: ‘How would you like to be governed, by a democracy like Israel possess or like the dictatorships and theocracies that stain much of the Islamic world.

Some would say that the main problem that Islamic reformers have is the base material, ie the Qu’ran, isn’t exactly promising and also contains not just historical records of violence, as the Bible does, but has current exhortations to violence against Non Muslims. It would be good if these Islamic reformers could find a theological way to either ‘file away’ these verses of aggression and violence, or reinterpret them, or view them as a historic and textual curiosities. Christians and Jews have done this to varying degrees depending on sect, which shows that it could be possible for Islam to do this in the future. After all, I don’t know of any community of contemporary Christians or Jews who go in for stoning of adulterers despite that being a biblical punishment.

Links

British Muslims for a Secular Democracy

http://www.bmsd.org.uk/pages.asp?id=2

Video of Hasan Afzal of British Muslims for Israel. Sorry I haven’t translated the intro of the video into English but my Ivrit is virtually non-existent.

http://youtu.be/ppNPcNRIilI 

Facebook page for Muslims United for Israel

http://www.facebook.com/MuslimsUnitedForIsrael

Ray Cook, Zionist writer praises Hasan Afzal and says he should be considered one of ‘the righteous among the nations’

http://www.raymondcook.net/blog/index.php/2011/03/30/a-brave-muslim-speaks-up-for-israel/

Wiki entry on the philosopher Baruch Spinoza

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

Wiki entry on the Protestant Reformer Martin Luther

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

54 Comments
  1. Robert the Biker permalink

    Where all this goody goody let’s all be pals bollocks falls down is the history of Mo and this koran fake of his. All the nice hearts and flowers stuff is in the earlier sura when that caravan raiding fuck thought everyone was just going to bow down and make him the boss; when he found out that he had deluded himself, we get the real kill-em-all-let-God-sort-em-out koran we know so well.
    These parts are seperated by the sura of abrogation; everything before was a mistake, this allah character changed his mind, so they aren’t binding.
    Unless and until these reformers can ignore the later parts (like 2/3s of the book), all this is just more taquiya and kitman as we are so well used to hearing.

  2. Noggin the Nog permalink

    Nonsense. Anyone who thinks that a murdering paedophile rapist is a prophet of God has a screw loose and cannot be trusted. They want secularism only as a first step toward replacing the CofE with Islam as the established religion of the country.

    Google ‘Taqiyya’.

    • Up to a point I agree with you, especially on the Taqiyya bit. However, the Qu’ran is basically in two bits, a relatively fluffy bit (fluffy in the context of the 7th century mind you) and the nasty violent bit.

      Reformers from other religions have managed to sideline the violent and nasty bits, therefore I applaud those Muslims who recognise that there are bits of the Qu’ran that need to be reinterpreted or filed away.

  3. Paris Claims permalink

    These “reformers” stand no chance against their violent co-religionists. In fact they further the cause of “bearded savages” in my opinion.They give the illusion that islam can be reformed and they give the lefty liberals ammunition to promote their suicidal multi-cult agenda.
    That said, I’m reasonably sure (most of) their intentions are good, and they are brave people.
    Islam is islam and has no place in the civilized world and must be irradicated from “our” countries. It really is “them or us”

    • I agree with you that much of Islamic culture is a bit of a basket case but as I’ve always gone after the culture and philosophy of Islam rather than the individual then I feel honour bound to speak up for those individuals who recognise that Islamic reform is needed.

    • Paris, Spinoza was only excommunicated from the Jewish community, some of these reformers and non headcase non expansionist types face far more threat than just excommunication. There are too many in the Islamic world who consider challenging orthodoxy or being accepting of heterodox views of Islam to be apostasy and you know how that is punished in the bearded savage world.

  4. Noggin the Nog permalink

    Farenheit,

    You need to be careful using a word like ‘honour’ around these muppets. Get it wrong and you’ll end up in a suitcase at the bottom of the garden, with a placcy bag stuffed down your throat.

    • There is more than one definition of ‘honour’. Most of them don’t involve killing female relatives.

      As I insist on saying. The individual must be separated from the mass. I feel I have to give credit for those who attempt to behave in a righteous (in the old sense of the word not the neological use of it) manner even though their path has too often been anathama to humanity and freedom.

      I also see difficulties in trying to rehab the life of a seventh century nonce to make it acceptable to the modern world, but the attempt should be made in the interests of peace.

      It would be interesting to disect the Qu’ran and see if a non violent bowlderised version could be produced. MInd you it appears to me that the fluffy bits of the qu’ran were nicked by Mo and others from Christianity and Judaism.

  5. Noggin the Nog permalink

    BTW My original point still stands; how on earth can ANYONE, no matter how reformist and fluffy, who thinks a thieving, raping, adultering paedophile is God’s perfect example to mankind be trusted? I don’t care how ‘nice’ they are, if they are a muslim, they are no good due to their veneration of a sick pervert.

    • I agree with you that Mo isn’t exactly the most inspiring leader and that unquestioning submission to Mo and veneration of him is a bit suspect.

      But what about those who question the alleged perfection of Mo? Should they be rolled up with the seeming majority of headcases? I don’t feel comfortable doing this as it would punish the innocent for the crmes of the guilty. That to me is not justice and is behaving in the same way as Islam behaves towards the non muslim in Islamic lands.

      Moshe Rabbainu (Moses) is venerated as a great teacher by Jews and Christians alike but he started his mission to free the Israelites with the murder of an Egyptian slave overseer. OK the alleged faults of Moses are in no way comparable to the faults of Mohammed, but would you permanantly condemn Moses for what is to a reasonable person a justifiable homicide?

      I can state that one reason (apart from the striking of the rock) why Moses ws not allowed to enter the promised land was that he started his mission with murder. No Christian or Jew would murder me for this statement, but reformist Muslims are very much at risk from their co-religionists if they make unorthodox statements and for reasons of common humanity alone those who speak out in favour of reform should be supported.

      I dont’ like Islam, I don’t like the theology, or the culture but Ithink it only fair to recognise that there are those out there who wish to change that.

  6. Noggin the Nog permalink

    I’m afraid your theology is a bit rough. Moses comitted manslaughter, not murder.

    The Koran is a combination of the ludicrous ramblings of a warlord attempting to justify his lust for power (and little girls, prisoners of war and blood) and butchered references to the Bible. The whole point of Islam is to be like Mo, just as the point of Christianity is to be like Christ. No Christ, no Christians, no Mo, no muslims. Just removing the large amount of sura which exort perversions and violence will never detract from the fact that the muslim is emulating Mo, and therefore his behaviour will never be compatible with right minded Western values.

    Christianity cannot be compared with Islam. One’s founder insisted on humility, love, respect and self denial. The other raped children and prisoners of war, was a self confessed liar, a murderer, warlord, thief and adulterer.

    I’ll let the reader decided which was which.

    PS There are no exhortations to violence from the believer in the NT. Not one.

    PPS An important angle you appear to be overlooking, and I know you will disagree with, is the predominant races which follow Islam. It appeals to the base nature of the lower races to be told that having 4 wives is pleasing to God, that killing people you disagree with is actually a righteousness, that lying to those of other ‘tribes’ is desirable, etc, etc. When one contrasts the obviously man-inspired diktats contained in the Koran, which do nothing but pander the craven nature of man, with the instructions given by Christ to turn the other cheek, to love others, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc, etc, then confirmed His sincerity by living what He preached to the point of death, it is not surpring that those with no sincerity themselves plump for the hope of loads of virgins (actually raisins) after a bloodbath, usually of those from nations they loathe, such as Israelis, yanks and brits.

    • Fair do’s Noggin, manslaughter it is.

      I agree that the ‘just like Mo’ thing is a huge stumbling block to any sort of reform because when you look at it well, Mo was a bit of a scumbag to say the least.

      Re Christianity, although the founder may have had some good ideas some of his followers left a lot to be desired at various points in history.

      I do disagree with on on the racial angle, after all there are probably more black Christians than white ones out there and I believe that culture rather than race is key. Where I will agree is that the culture of ancient arabia was probably violent and tribally antagonistic and this probably fed into the nastier bits of the Koran.

      What I will say is the OT/NT is much more coherent as a narrative than the Koran.

  7. Noggin the Nog permalink

    You think culture is key, not race. True, but the races developed different cultures precisely because they themselves are different.

    Not PC I know, but true nevertheless.

    • Disagree on that one. After all Judaism and Christianity came out of lands populated by brown or brownish hue.

  8. Noggin the Nog permalink

    RE your point on badly behaved Christians; whenever a person professing to be a believer uses his religion as an excuse to murder or commit adultery, to lie and to attempt to subvert nations, they do so in TOTAL contradiction to the instruction of their master, Christ.

    When muslims do likewise, they are simply being obedient to their master, Mo.

  9. Paris Claims permalink

    Any half decent person who has the severe misfortune to be born into this sick belief system should leave it and encourage others to do the same. It will take a lot of guts, but that is the only way to reform it.

    • Spot on. Every time a born muslim reads and understands the koran and thinks about it and hopefully comes to the conclusion that Islam is a violent hatefilled, racist, misogynistic, slave owning, heap of rancid pig bollocks and rejects it, then thatis someone who is growing out of unthinking slavery, that is someone becoming free.

      I don’t want to kill or injure Muslims, I want to see them freed from the slavery that is Islam.

      Free the slave (the muslim) and punish the slave owner (islam) should be a motto to work with.

      Yeah the islamic reformers are brave, but not as completly mad as a man I once met who converted from Islam to Judaism eeek!

  10. Noggin the Nog permalink

    Because you pre mod the comments they appear out of order and it skews the debate.

    I said that the lower races are problematic. The Hebrews are not of the lower races, which can easily be confirmed by looking at their number of Nobel prizes in science and medicine, over 100 and counting, then compare it with the number of Arab/muslim prizes, which is 0.

    I suppose this could be explained by the Nobel comittee being islamophobic?

    • Yeah sorry about the pre modding I’ve been playing with controls here will sort out later.

      I think the reason that Jews do so well in NP’s is because of their culture of learning. This culture of respect for learning is missing from much of Islamic culture.

      As regards race your comment isblown away by simply looking at Black Americans.

      The middle class bright hard working black americans respect learning and do well whereas the gangsta mouth breathers in the inner cities don’t and have a very short life expectancy.

      Same country,same broad national culture same race, just different intra racial attitudes to education and hard work.

      Some of the worst damage to Black britons and black americans has beendone by themulticulturalists creating and feeding a sense of black victimhood.

      This has not advanced black britons or americans one little bit but has only served to imprison to many of them in hopeless ghettos. (are you listening Harringey council?)

    • Paris Claims permalink

      I think Yasser Arafat won the peace prize. What next? An award to the Yorkshire Ripper for womens’ rights? Blair may have trumped that already by making that Hodge woman Minister for Children. Just as well Savile wasn’t an MP at the time.

      • Knowing about Hodge and Islington it was the height of arrogance to make Hodge Children’s Minister.

  11. Noggin. I’ve read your racist screed and it’s complete bollocks and is now in my spam file. That sort of language which is the textual equal of a monkey chant at a football match is NOT acceptable here. Firstly it is wrong and secondly idiotic racism like that damages the cause of anti jihadism and helps to discredit anti jihadists. Concentrate on the proper enemy. As I say in the About page, if you want racist bollocks then why not try somewhere like Stormfront. Not here please.

    I’ve let you have a fair crack at the racist loon whip even though you know that is not my position but the last comment was completely unacceptable. Tone it down or better turn it off or dont’ comment here. I don’t want anti jihadism tainted with the sort of racism you came out with. I do state that this is NOT a racist blog in the about page, my gaff my rules.

  12. Noggin the Nog permalink

    Farenheit,

    Put up the comment so other readers can decide whether what I said was incorrect or not. It’s easy to call someone for something if others cannot see what was said.

    You took it down because you cannot argue with it, you cannot answer the questions with anything other than a pathetic whimper of ‘racist’.

    I’m hardly likely to fit in at Stormfront with my views on Jews and Israel, am I? Please try to think before your programming kicks in.

    Mod this and I’ll say goodbye.

    • Noggin, I didn’t take it down because ‘I coudn’t argue with it’ far from it. I let you bang on about race for quite a few comments and challenged you tht the problem wasn’t race it was culture. You then came back with a screed which is very much out of tune with the rest of the stuff here. I don’t mind disagreement but gratuitous racial abuse is not acceptable.

      I don’t think that abuse should be heaped on the things that a person cannot change such as race, culture, religion, nationality, taste in music are things that people can change and are an acceptable target.

      • Paris Claims permalink

        You can change your culture and your religion. And I once knew a black guy that almost managed to change his race! When it was just me and him, or me him and a few white guys, by his behaviour and words you couldn’t tell us apart (apart from skin tone). Add a few black guys to the mix and he transformed, in seconds, into a wannabe Yardie

      • Yeah that sort of thing happens when you get someone who doesn’t want to be thought of as abandoning his original culture so in order to show that he hadn’t he may have ramped it up a bit.

  13. To other readers in a sprit of freedom of speech I’ve let Noggin have an awful lot of rope to say things like ‘lower races’ even though I don’t agree with that sort of attitude. Unfortunately he has decided to take said rope and hang himself with it. Noggin is welcome to comment here but minus the racism please.

  14. Noggin the Nog permalink

    In the spirit of freedom of speech you’ve modded my comments?

    You haven’t quite grasped this concept, have you?

    • Noggin, one tactic used by the jihadists and apologists for jihadists is to shout out’racist’. Your comment was only fuel for that fire. I let you say things that I find difficult because I don’t like to be too prescriptive, but your last comment crossed the line big time and is the sort of thing that wankers like UAF delight in using to discredit anti jihadists.

      I’m not going to put the original comment of yours up as it will just be siezed on by the enemies and used to blacken the name of anti jihadism.

      I don’t mind a bit of harsh words but your comments were a delight for anybody wanting to tar anti jihadists with the racist tag.

      Don’t damage the cause of anti jihadism with shite like that, we all pay the price when that happens.

  15. Noggin the Nog permalink

    Proscriptive.

    A tactic of jihadists is to cry ‘racist’, and then you call me racist?

    If your position is correct, you should be able to provide me with the answers to the questions I asked.

    As you have been forced to resort to name calling, I have to assume you have no answers, and I am left in my unenlightened state of ignorance, believing these things based on such shakey evidence as science, history, experience and statistics.

    Shame on you for leaving me so, when a few simple answers from yourself would free me from this darkness.

    • Noggin, you may truly belive what you say, and you have a right to hold the views that you do. However, I know that Loonwatch, the security services and the massed ranks of treasonous commies also monitor anti jihadist blogs, love overt anti black racism as it provides them with a stick to beat anti jihadist activists with. I don’t see why any of us should make, it easy for such people to attack anti jihadist blogs.

      I stand by my view that problems are not down to race but are down to culture.

      You are still welcome to post here, and you have interesting and singular views on such things as religion and theology which do inform debate. However, screaming that no black man has ever amounted to anything without the inventions and discoveries of the white man, as well as being wrong ( Condoleeza Rich is one example of a self made high achieving black person that pops into my mind) gives fuel to those who wish to damage the anti jihadist cause.

      This is not a racist site and I make this clear in the About section.

      • Paris Claims permalink

        I’m not sure if it’s true, but I’ve read on more than one occasion that the only place in the world where the wheel was not invented , was sub saharan Africa. I accept that Africans tend to be superior in some aspects, but I also believe that studies have proven they tend to have lower IQs than other races. We don’t live in a perfect world where everybody has the same potential. I think Noggin has a point regarding the appeal of islam to certain types. One only has to look at white converts. The majority seem to be suffering from some sort of personal crisis, or they have a personality disorder, often quite serious.
        With regard to your point about the need to appear non racist in order to disarm our opponents, take a look at how Tommy Robinson is treated. He burns Nazi flags, waves around Israeli flags, hugs black men and still they call him a nazi racist. Let them name call, there’s nothing that can be done to avoid it.

      • Paris, I certainly agree with you regarding ‘damned if we do and damned if we don’t’ regarding anti jihadists showing anti racist credentials. However, I grew up with a wide variety of people and saw that racial differences were superficial, it was the culture, community and family that made the big difference.

        The IQ difference may be down to cultural biases in how the test is set out. For example an IQ test set by say a Chinese national for Chinese nationals may show different results (provided that the test hasn’t been modified to cater for both cultures) when used with say an American subject.

        Re the attraction of Islam for certain types. It certainly appealed to the violent tribal culture of ancient Arabia. As regards Western converts to Islam well many of those I’ve come across have been really damaged and abused individuals or weak people looking for a all encompassing cause.

        Personally I think that converts to Islam are probably more dangerous than many born Muslims as the born muslim will have th self confidence to say ‘nah this bit is bollocks’ where as the convert may feel that to prove themselves as a proper Muslim they need to be more observant than the observant. To use an analogy, converts to Judaism are sometimes more likely to keep strict kosher than many born Jews.

    • Noggin, at present I am ‘on the road’ and away from my ‘library’ so if you wish I’ll try later to dig out figures to back up myassertions that it is culture not race. But what I will say is that my extensive life experience has brought me into contact with loads of different people and I have foundmore differences between individuals and cultures than between races.

      Your race you cannot change, but your culture, religion, and so much else can be changed. I will not be a party to condemning peoplefor the things they cannot change.

      • Paris Claims permalink

        Make your mind up! In an earlier comment you claimed you cannot change your culture and religion!
        I’m not trying to have a go, just pointing out a contradiction.

      • My apologies Noggin for that. I was typing on a very small keyboard. That should have said ‘you CAN change your culture or religion but you CANNOT change things such as race.

  16. Proscriptive, I stand corrected on that. Typing on a tiny keyboard isn’ always the best thingfor fast typing.

  17. Noggin the Nog permalink

    I have no more condemned a black for not being a white than I have a shire horse for not being a thoroughbred, I have merely observed that, like the horses, blacks and whites are observably and quantifiable different.

    I have a library too, so it could get interesting.

    • Noggin, I don’t believe that black and white humans are psychologically different. Culture is all. If you take a baby from one racial cultural group and bring it up in another then there doesn’t appear to be that much of difference.

      OK there will always be the ‘where did I come from’ questions’ but such questions would be applicable in any sort of adoption situation.

      If you are inferring that there is an IQ difference then this brings up even more questions as IQ tests can be culturally biased and how you test for IQ needs to be varied from culture to culture to get a proper idea.

      • Noggin the Nog permalink

        It doesn’t matter how you quantify intelligence, nor how you test for it, blacks have consistently scored considerably lower than whites in every form of testing. Whites have also consistently come second to orientals.

        They do not, brodly speaking, simply lack intelligence. They are emotionally stunted too. Violence is seen as a norm. Several black teenagers kicked a white linesman to death in a kid’s match in Holland last week, for flagging for offside. This behaviour was unheard of before western nations let these savages in.

        On average, a black brain is 10% less dense than a white brain and a similar amount smaller. Their bones are stronger and they have considerably more muscle mass. They have a higher pain threshold, higher levels of stamina and much lower levels of lactic acid after exercise, hence their dominance in boxing and running.

        Whether you consider the differences to be good or bad, they are most definitely different. We are not the same with just a different colour skin.

        Condy suceeded, and fair play to her. Obviously there are some blacks considersbly more civilised and intelligent than whites. We are talking about genaralisations, typical persons, the average of the races. It is to be noted that she succeeded in a culture not her own. Would she have risen to power in Africa?

      • I think both I and my quote from the Lecturer at Earlham College should answer the majority of the other post.

        Regarding Condy, she worked her arse off at great cost to herself to get where she got to, probably because she had good parental, family and communal role models to follow. Where parenting, family and community break down (often due to the well meaning but often misguided actions of the welfare state which have unforseen and in many way negative outcomes) these role models no longer exist and you get the sort of violence you speak of above.

        Condy would not have risen to power in those areas of Africa where Islam has sway of that I am 100% sure.

        Female leaders are not unknown though in Africa, here are two that are trying to make other women’s lives better. I say that just by doing the job they must inspire other African women.

    • Noggin, I disagree with your position but I feel I was little harsh with you ans shouldnt’ have cut your piece but should have answered it in detail. For that I apologise (I had been awake for 44 out of the previous 48 hours if that may act in some sort of mitigation)

      I do try to keep this blog clean of racial slurs like ‘black people are thick’ because not all anti jihadis are white (and a lot of victims of Islam are black as well) , and there is a whole load of people who like me were brought up in racially mixed environments such as Dock Cities who are extremely concerned about the growth of Islam but are turned off by racial stereotyping.

      The presence of racial stereotyping on some anti jihadist blogs and site is used by groups like Loonwatch to sideline anti jihadis. If a group is classified as a ‘racist’ or ‘hate’ site in people’s eyes then they are less likely to engage with the information within. There is a section of my target audience which I like to serve but who are really put off by racial slurs whether it be regarding skin colour or anything else.

      • Noggin the Nog permalink

        I have not said that black people are thick. They are, on average less intelligent than all other races though. That is a demonstrable fact.

      • Less intelligent/thick they are just two different ways of saying a similar thing.

        This article from a Quaker College (Earlham College) in the USA makes me dispute the ‘demonstrable fact’ of differential intelligence.

        This guy backs up what I say about biases in intelligence testing, also as Mr Jackson says in the article below you’ve got to look at socio-economic stuff as well. When people are in a lower class group it is harder for them to meet and mate with those who are brighter and who have made it..Think about it, social snobbery on both the part of the upper status person and the lower status person conspire to narrow the gene pool and therefore possibly affect intelligence. Look at the phenomenon of Chavs for a non-racial analogy or the affect on development in children born of Pakistani Muslim Cousin-cousin marriage. Both these groups find their chances of up status mating restricted, thereby concentrating the problem. The genetics are not the whole story, to leave out culture and society is to ignore an awful lot.

        I quote from Michael R Jackson of Earlham College. Note: I agree that the writer is a bit of an old hippy but the arguments look sound to me. It’s not all in the genes, otherwise if I followed my main family trait I would be working on some ship somewhere.

        Quote begins: ” IQ tests measure only a rather narrow portion of this broader spectrum – the portion that correlates most highly with successful performance in the kinds of academic institutions associated with dominant Western cultures. There is nothing wrong with looking at a limited segment of intelligence, and it may be impossible to study intelligence without doing so. But when that segment encompasses precisely those abilities that are disproportionately promoted, rewarded, and educationally transmitted within the dominant stratum of a society, then a methodological circularity has been established that ensures that the members of that privileged group will perpetually be “discovered” to be the “most intelligent” members of that society, and of the world at large. More generally, the concept of intelligence, in the broader sense, is an extremely hazy one, and problems like this are scarcely avoidable. As Sternberg et al. note, experts have never been able to agree on a theoretical definition of intelligence, a fact which limits our ability to do meaningful research on this topic (46, 57).”

        The full article is here:

        http://legacy.earlham.edu/~jacksmi/content/race_and_intelligence.html

        Going down the route of attaching too much importance to genes over environment and culture ignores too much data that has influence on the whole picture. Also as the writer says, what sort of intelligence are you examining. I can’t paint,I’d love to be able to, but I’ve tried and failed, but there are other people out there who have the aptitude to paint but don’t. Why don’t they paint? Was the environment they were brought up in dismissive of painting, did a paid job look more attractive than going to art school, peer pressure against it, fear of failing at earning a living at painting, not wanting to paint to order. Even when you think about something as simple as whether or not someone who has a possible genetic ability to paint and draw, whether they do or not is all down to culture and environment.

        Racial determinism, belongs back with all the other horrors of the1920’s, 1930’s and 40’s, snf along with Lysenko’s ‘work’, which should today be looked at as both a historical curiosity and a warning of what can happen when plausible scientific charlatans start to get heard in the corridors of power.

  18. Paris Claims permalink

    http://www.youtube.com/ watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MlQBWdGjH4U#!

    This may well end up in your trash folder, but if you disagree, I’d like to know why.
    I’m not trying to be argumentative, it’s your blog after all, which I enjoy.I’d just like your opinion on the content/

    • I started watching it and thought I’ll look up the bit about pre-colonial African societies. You may be surprised that at various times in pre-colonial African History and in different places on the continent, there were a variety of different types of government, from despotic kingdoms to confederacies.

      If I can pull out a fail with one google search after 1 minute and 7 seconds of viewin, why should I bother watching further. Methinks his ‘racial realism’ is a little unrealistic and may well be a cover for ‘I don’t like that fella who doesn’t look like me’.

      Links:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kingdoms_in_pre-colonial_Africa

      And another ( I know of the Griot because I’ve blogged about them before)
      http://www.mrdowling.com/609-test.htm

      Or this from UCLA on Medieval African Literature
      http://wbelcher.bol.ucla.edu/default.htm

      Stanford University has some good links as well
      http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/history/hisking.html

      Now if I can find all this, in a few minutes of searching to disprove and disrupt one of his early points about Africa, can you give any reason why I should leave it here, sullying the blog? The enemies of freedom are not people different races, they are people from a culture with a warped view of humanity.

      I don’t need this discredited (from 1945 onwards I might add) bollocks here, it’s divisive and distracts not only from the real problem but as I keep saying aids those who wish to discredit anti-jihadists, such as those on the Left.

      I was going to leave this steaming turd of a film up for a while so others can laugh at it as well, but I don’t want other readers thinking I approve of such stuff. I have however, left a broken link in for the video, so that others can look at it and come to their own conclusions.

      If you want to point the finger at the people who share much of the blame for the, in the USA and UK, flatlining performance of Black communties then that finger needs to be pointed at the likes of Jesse Jackson, Lee Jasper and the whole horror show of so called black activists who filled people’s heads with ‘victimhood envy’ and by doing that sapped their strength and dignity.

      I’ve made my point, I stick to it and I back it up with reputable sources not some bloke from the interweb. I’m only sad to see someone as bright as David Horowitz associating with him. About the only thing I can see that hits the plus button with Jared Taylor is the fact that he took Holocaust deniers and neo Nazis off of his email list.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor

      A video speech that I can pull apart so bloody easily is NOT a credible source.

  19. I’m closing this thread to the purveyors of the fake ‘racial science’ that disfigured so much of the 20th Century. People are welcome to comment on the original topic, but those who get a intellectual stiffy from reading the books of Charles B Davenport are not welcome to sell their poisoned wares here.

    I could think of something clever and witty to piss off the people who hold such attitudes, but to be quite frank I’ve got better things to do, with a day off. Instead I’ll leave you with the best ever description in Yiddish that I can find, of the well flogged dead horse which is racial science and its associate and handmaiden, eugenics.

    A chazer bleibt a chazer. (A pig remains a pig) , even when the pig is covered in the lipstick of pseudo-intellectual phrases like ‘racial realism’.

  20. To Noggin, This is not a site for promulgating offbeat and discredited theories of race and intelligence. I have told you before that this is not the place for that. It has not been my experience that being thick as a short plank for example is confined to one particular racial group of people.

    I appolgised to you earlier because I should not have edited your post as I did and used a bit of harsh language towards you. What I should have done is put it your post up and taken the piss out of it like I did, with references I might add, with the video put up by Paris Claims.

    You, and others, are welcome here to debate or pass on news about the depredations of Islamic CULTURE, but spouting the sort of crank ‘racial science’ that provided the tracks that the locomotive of the Holocaust ran on, is not welcome and will be deleted or moved to the Spam folder (your two posts that are pending are not going to be posted).

    I believe in free speech but I’m not going to shout fire in a crowded theatre where there is definitely no fire. So called ‘racial science’ is the equal of shouting fire when there is no fire.

    As I say in the About, if I delete something I will always try to explain why I delete it or don’t like it as I believe that that it is only fair to explain why a person’s comment doesn’t fit with the ethos of the blog. I have done that.

  21. Noggin the Nog permalink

    You have not fairly explained the deletion of my post, merely attempted to paint me a loon by onesided editing.

    Your house, your rules.

    So I’ll bid you good day, Sir.

    • Noggin, I did explain the deletion of your post. It was because it contained the discredited idea that there is an objective variation in intelligence between races.

      Sorry you are going but you are welcome to come here to discuss Islamism it’s just this site is not a vehicle for discredited racial science theories.

  22. Noggin the Nog permalink

    It’s sad that you’re frightened by words.

    What sort of man are you?

    • I’m not frightened of words it’s just that I do not want to be associated, for moral and ethical reasons, with words that encourage the hatred of people for the things that they cannot change. Sadly ‘racial science’ and ‘racial realism’ do just that.

      As to what sort of man I am, I am a person who grew up in a racially mixed but thoroughly British cultural environment, who has seen through his own eyes the lie that it is the idea that there is an objective variation in intelligence across races.

      Message for Noggin. I don’t want this sort of issue polluting the blog for the reasons I have stated, but as you believe you have a point and still believe that your evidence is correct – I happen to be of a differing opinion – then you are welcome to email me at farenheit211 (at ) mail.com I will gladly debate with you. But for so many reasons, I do not want this sort of thing on here.

  23. Noggin the Nog permalink

    Please repeat yor mail address. Is it Gmail?

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Fahrenheit211

Religion, politics, culture and a whole lot more

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